Ron Paul’s Supporters are the Republicans’ Cindy Sheehans

Thursday, July 26. 2007

Ron Paul’s Supporters are the Republicans’ Cindy Sheehans

Bob Krumm writes: (via Instapundit)

I lived in Texas a few years back, and I have to say that I was impressed by Congressman Ron Paul’s originalist interpretation of the Constitution. While I do not support his foreign policy positions, I have long admired his principled stands.

What I do not admire, however, is his inability to wrest his own campaign away from the crazies who are advocating on his behalf. They, his own supporters, have defined Ron Paul negatively. And that, now, will be his lasting legacy. ... Ron Paul’s supporters are the Republicans’ Cindy Sheehans.

As someone who voted for Ron Paul for president in 1988, I couldn't agree more with Krumm.

Glenn Reynolds, philosophically a libertarian-leaning thinker, also concurs with Krumm, and adds that the all-too-frequent nasty behavior of many of Paul's supporters is what turns him off.

For myself, as someone who voted for Libertarian presidential candidates in every election from 1980 through 1996, the only difference between the activists at Libertarian Party gatherings I have attended and activists at Democratic and Republican Party gatherings I have also attended is the Libertarian Party activists seem to bathe less frequently and are possessed of less social couth than are the others.

Posted by Tom Elia in Politics at 16:40 | Comments (27) | Trackbacks (2)

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It's hard to imagine any party having enough manners not to comment on the manners and social bahaviors of others.

#1 ANDREA on 2007-07-26 17:10 (Reply)

Thanks for clearing that up.

#1.1 Tom Elia on 2007-07-26 17:15 (Reply)

Here here. It's as if the pot is calling the kettle black.

First other disseminate lies about Ron Paul supporters. Lies like calling us "poll spammers."

And then they insult us by calling us names like "kooks", "Tin foil hat wearers" and worse. All because we believe in the Constitution.

Then they try to smear us by association. God forbid some 9/11 truther even ask Ron Paul a question. Because as soon as they do they brand all us with that moniker.

But if a 9/11truther ask a question of Giuliani. It's perfectly acceptable.

It's like political racism. And the bigots, the haters of the Constitution, the defenders of the status quo are out in full force. And they can say whatever they want about us.

But if we defend ourselves or even strike back at them they repeat the cycles of lies and oppression.

#1.2 BillyThe Greek on 2007-07-26 17:34 (Reply)

Sorry, not buying.

The fact is, Ron Paul's supporters have spammed a number of online polls in order to get results favorable to Rep. Paul.

And people don't consider Ron Paul's supporters "kooks," "tin foil hat wearers," and the like because they "believe in the Constitution" -- it's because of the methods and rhetoric that many of them choose to use.

Your statement that Ron Paul is being "smeared" because 9/11 conspiracy theorists may ask him questions is a false representation of what people object to. People are objecting to the way Rep. Paul has pandered to these people, and I might add, appearing numerous times on a conspiracy-mongering radio show like that of Alex Jones doesn't help his cause.

What is that all about?

When Giuliani has been questioned by the same types of people, he has told them he disagrees with their take -- he doesn't pander to them.

It isn't "like political racism" to point these things out. And it isn't "oppression" when it is pointed out again.

And again.

#1.2.1 Tom Elia on 2007-07-26 17:52 (Reply)

I am calling you a liar...Right to your face.

I challenge you to prove your assertion of "poll spamming."

You can't because you're a liar.

And if you can prove that the government is always honest with the American people I will apologize.

But until then I am calling you out on the carpet. The gauntlet has been thrown down.

Take your best shot...

#1.2.1.1 BillyThe Greek on 2007-07-26 18:03 (Reply)

Actually, you aren't calling me a liar "right to my face." You're doing it electronically via computer; so let's not make it more than it is.

And, oh, I'm not lying.

I will confidently state that any online poll showing Ron Paul above 10% is being spammed by Paul supporters who are voting more than once. Pure and simple.

Results showing otherwise are inaccurate and not reflective of reality -- there are a number of these online polls purporting to show Rep. Paul leading amongst repb primary voters, and you know it.

Rep. Paul isn't getting that kind of national support.

No reputable national poll supports the kind of numbers that Rep. Paul has pulled in on any of those online polls.

As a matter of fact, the only Libertarian Party candidate to get 1% nationally was Ed Clark in 1980.

I know, because I voted for him, as well as all the other Libertarian Party candidates through 1996, including Rep. Paul.

And for the record, I never said, nor do I believe, that "the government is always honest with the American people."

I'm not sure where that came from, but it helps to illustrates my prior point about the poor public perception of many of Ron Paul's supporters and consequently, of Rep. Paul himself.

#1.2.1.1.1 Tom Elia on 2007-07-26 18:29 (Reply)

This truther smear didn't work before, and it won't work again. In the video below, RP debunks the conspiracy theorists, kooks, nut jobs, and radicals like Bob Krumm that are smearing him. I mean these people are worse than Cindy Sheehan and Rosie O'Donnell combined. Ron Paul isn't mentioned at all in the video Krumm refers to, so my question is, who is he trying to fool?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=de1_1185477767

#2 brody on 2007-07-26 17:41 (Reply)

1) We have posted on this Web site video of Rep. Paul pandering to 9/11 conspiracy theorists in a campaign stop in, I believe, New Hampshire.

Here it is:

http://www.theneweditor.com/index.php?/archives/6047-Ron-Paul-Panders-to-911-Conspiracy-Nuts.html

I do not, for a moment believe that Rep. Paul believes in such garbage, but he hasn't come out and said that until the videos in question came out. But he has pandered to that crowd on more than one occasion, make no mistake.

How else do you explain all the appearances with Alex Jones? Come on.

2) The video to which Krumm refers -- and which we have up on this site -- is the work of a woman who claims to be a Ron Paul supporter.

Just check out her prior work on YouTube.

Krumm's not trying to fool anyone; he's just relaying the truth.

#2.1 Tom Elia on 2007-07-26 18:07 (Reply)

Thar's exactly what I am saying.

I saw that video of the crazy houston9/11 lady too.

Ron Paul has millions of supporters. How does one person who is not even talking with Dr Paul equate to license to smear all Ron Paul supporters?

You proved my point single handedly.

My favorite are the folks that think Giuliani was a hero for doing absolutely nothing that any other mayor would not have done on that tragic day. That's what I call crazy.

BTW...The video is bonk..There's no link.It's dead...and the video was taken at fund raiser to which these students showed up at. And the video is only like 40 something seconds long. It's not even as if their was a meaningful dialog.

Nice try!

#3 BillyThe Greek on 2007-07-26 18:17 (Reply)

You're right, the video link is dead.

In the video, Rep. Paul never tells the 9/11 conspiracy theorists that he disagrees with them -- he clearly panders to them.

Just like former Sen. Edwards and Sen. Kerry did when they were confronted with similar folks.

And the multiple appearances on Alex Jones' show? What was the purpose of those chats?

(This should have read: "confronted by folks holding similar views.")

Sorry for the sloppiness.

#3.1 Tom Elia on 2007-07-26 18:35 (Reply)

Hi,

Thanks for an interesting post. I am a liberal democrat and I support Ron Paul for president.

Thanks,

James H.

#4 James (Homepage) on 2007-07-26 18:22 (Reply)

Ron Paul has a wide variety of supporters just like any other candidate. Anyone being honest would define the typical Ron Paul supporter as being in favor of freedom, liberty, small government, and a very traditional-conservative interpretation of the Constitution.

Ron Paul will help restore a proper balance of power between the Federal and State governments, as the Constitution requires. And if he can just say ‘No’ to congress’ overspending for a few years then he will have done a great service to our country.

‘Scientific Polls’ at this stage only measure name recognition. Over the next six months Ron Paul will gain name recognition and people will learn about who Ron Paul is. Most people who learn about Ron Paul become major supporters.

Ron Paul is 1st in YouTube, Meetup, MySpace, Facebook, Technorati, Alexa, Google, etc. The old media is just too slow to realize what is happening.

Ron Paul places 1st or 2nd in every straw poll, debate, and active participation survey.

Ron Paul has the most contributions from U.S. military personnel above all other candidates. So support the troops and vote Ron Paul!

Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton were doing about the same in the 'Scientific Polls' at this stage in their elections. Ron Paul has tremendous momentum and his support is growing exponentially. The other candidates are stagnant. Only Ron Paul's support is growing and will continue to grow!

Ron Paul is the man of integrity and courage that America needs at this time.

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.” John Quincy Adams

We are making history – Vote Ron Paul!

Visit YouTube and search Ron Paul to learn more…

#5 Bill O. Rights on 2007-07-26 20:45 (Reply)

Check out Thompson's voting record and you will find that he voted for all but 2 of the 95 appropriations (spending) bills that came up during his tenure. Not a conservative at all.

#6 David (Homepage) on 2007-07-26 21:03 (Reply)

Yes, yes, you've already let us know of your belief regarding Fred Thompson's lack of conservative credibility when you wrote essentially the same thing on the Fred Thompson post about the 9/11 conspiracy theorist -- where it was at least partially germane to the discussion.

Not a very serious point, as I wrote before.

And of course, isolationism isn't his bag, either ... or Giuliani's, or McCain's.

#6.1 Tom Elia on 2007-07-26 21:18 (Reply)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=de1_1185477767

#7 BillyThe Greek on 2007-07-26 23:16 (Reply)

Yes, this is the same video clip someone else submitted, which is all well and good.

But you see, though it comes after the previous pandering of Rep. Paul, the questions of why he felt it necessary in the first place still remain, as do the questions regarding his decision to appear numerous time on Alex Jones' show.

No one seems to have addressed those appearances...

#7.1 Tom Elia on 2007-07-27 00:28 (Reply)

Gee that must be the thing about a freedom message. Paul wasnt kidding when he said a freedom message unites us.

It apparently unites vastly different political views, and people who arent afraid to ask questions because it might not be perceived as mainstream.

So people who support Paul ask questions about 9/11, so what? Wtf is wrong with asking questions? Maybe if you studied the evidence yourself you might have some questions of your own.

They are also people who do this..

http://www.gambling911.com/Ron-Paul-072307.html

Or perhaps you want to keep our racist, judgmental, sexually repressed and paranoid culture the way it is?

Guess some people dont want to be THAT free.

#8 EEKman on 2007-07-27 00:04 (Reply)

You're right, it is important to ask questions.

In that spirit, I do have some questions after studying the evidence from 9/11.

Here's one: Do the people who believe that "Bush knew" or that it was an "inside job" have parents who had any other children that lived?

If so, do they like to eat paint chips like their other siblings apparently do?

#8.1 Tom Elia on 2007-07-27 00:23 (Reply)

L.A. Efficiency Chosen As Site Of 2000 Libertarian Convention
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/38758

An Onion classic! Since we're talking about libertarians and quoting websites, I thought I'd go ahead and sneak it in here.

As to the actual discussion, all I can say is that it's reassuring (in a strange way) to be reminded that both sides of the political spectrum have an ample helping of crazy. It helps to put the more reasonable opposition in perspective. Or, if it fails to do that, at least it gives everybody something to shake their heads sadly about together, and isn't that what bipartisanship is all about?

#9 some girl from Chicago on 2007-07-27 00:09 (Reply)

Point taken. But it is important to note that there is very often a difference between libertarian thinkers (small "l") and the Libertarian Party (big "L").

So, there is a difference between Libertarians and libertarians.

An example of which you are seeing in this comment string...

#9.1 Tom Elia on 2007-07-27 00:40 (Reply)

It's a distinction that's lost on me... I don't think there's an equivalent on the left. (Left? Now I'm nervous.)

But I get what you're saying.

#9.1.1 some girl from Chicago on 2007-07-27 15:43 (Reply)

I don't think there is an exact equivalent either, but not all democrats are Democrats, etc...

#9.1.1.1 Tom Elia on 2007-07-27 15:52 (Reply)

I tried my hand today at understanding/synthesizing the Ron Paul net phenomenon as I see it - here's an excerpt:

What the hell?

The previous graphs - but two plucked from countless others of their kind - are the handiwork of Ron Paul’s supporters: they represent the tallied online responses to poll questions regarding Republican primary candidates and they demonstrate an overwhelming support of and preference for Mr. Paul.

"But didn’t you just write that Ron Paul has zero percent of the American public’s support?"

Indeed I did, but I also failed to mention this important caveat: that that zero percent spends one-hundred percent of its collective time online trying to make it look like its candidate is more popular than he actually is.

the full article:

http://www.catsandbeer.com/politics/who-is-ron-paul

#10 Brian (Homepage) on 2007-07-27 00:36 (Reply)

I disagree with Tom's comment about poll-spamming. There have been documented instances of that by Paul supporters (and supporters of other candidates, including Tommy Thompson, Obama and others.) But Paul's disproportionate support online, like Bill Richardson's disproportionate support online, is not consistently a result of "poll-spamming" but is instead a reflection of who Ron Paul supporters are -- disproportionately engineers, technicians and the internet-savvy and focused.

The Paul volunteers are networked and online, but a Congressman from Texas who doesn't chair any committees and isn't particularly charismatic would not be expected to register very highly in terms of name recognition, which is what early polls measure. (see Chris Dodd, Chuck Hagel, Duncan Hunter, Jim Gilmore, Mike Pence), all of whom perform at or below the level of Dr. Paul.

That said, I do think that Congressman Paul needs some kind of "Sister Souljah" moment with the 9/11 truthers. Skepticism about government is fine and appropriate, but the truthers that persist after the definitive debunking of the "building 7 was an inside job" nonsense are just off the reservation.

And I say that as someone who often agrees with Alex Jones about gun rights, and who appreciates his skepticism about NAFTA, the Trans Texas Corridor and the North American Security and Prosperty Initiative. But on 9/11, Jones and his friends have persisted long past the point of reasonableness.

#11 David Rogers on 2007-07-27 11:50 (Reply)

I don't think your characterization of Rep. Paul's support in several online polls accurately reflects the degree of the divergence between the more scientific polling and the online results.

Rep. Paul has won online polls sponsored by MSNBC, ABC, Fox, and CNN.

In one ABC poll, Paul got about 80% of the vote, as he has in other, lesser-known, online venues.

The notion that Ron Paul supporters are more likely to be "engineers, technicians and the internet-savvy and focused" may be true, but it doesn't necessarily explain his performances on more mainstream venues like MSNBC, ABC, Fox, and CNN.

There is no scientific poll showing Paul above 10%, yet we see numerous instances in online polls where Paul leads in the vote getting.

If you say that a 5%, 10%, or 15% difference between the polls can be explained by poor sampling or some other under representation, okay, I can see that argument.

But these polls are showing much larger divergences, and are evidence of multiple voting or poll spamming, where e-mails are sent out to large groups asking them to vote in a poll.

It's obvious manipulation, especially in light of the fact that no Libertarian has ever exceeded even 1.5% of the vote in a national presidential race.

As for his followers and a potential "Sister Soljah Moment," Ron Paul needs to come out and tell the 9/11 conspiracy theorists -- unequivocally -- that he thinks they are wrong and that he disagrees with them.

But he hasn't done that; he beats around the bush, saying essentially, I don't trust the government and there are people covering their butts regarding the attack. I think it's fairly obvious that the consistent hedging of his comments is an effort to keep the 9/11 conspiracy theorists in his corner.

As for Alex Jones, his conspiracy mongering about 9/11, "black helicopters" during the Clinton Administration, "The North American Union," etc., far outweighs any of his Even-a-Broken-Clock-is-Right-Twice-a-Day moments.

Jones is a scumbag who preys upon people who are vulnerable to swallowing his nonsense.

I wonder how much dough Jones makes off of his adherents?

And how many times has Rep. Paul appeared on Jones' show?

#11.1 Tom Elia on 2007-07-27 12:28 (Reply)

I think that Paul needs to make it clearer that he does not buy into the "Truther" conspiracy theory. But I think that the recent NYTimes profile does make it clear that he isn't buying their line.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/magazine/22Paul-t.html?pagewanted=4&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fP%2fPaul%2c%20Ron&_r=1

Money quote: "But Paul’s patience with the “Truthers,” as they call themselves, does not make him one himself. “Even at the time it happened, I believe the information was fairly clear that Al Qaeda was involved,” he told me."

As for Jones and the Truthers, if he (and they) support Paul, it is much like Reagan said about Birchers supporting him -- they support him, he is not supporting them.

#11.1.1 David Rogers on 2007-07-27 15:53 (Reply)

As I said, I don't think he believes that crap.

But he is pandering to these people, make no mistake ... because he needs them.

Reagan didn't need the Birchers; Paul needs the 9/11 conspiracy theorists.

#11.1.1.1 Tom Elia on 2007-07-27 16:00 (Reply)

Tom:

You say Reagan didn't need the Birchers, and by 1980 you were right. It's not clear, however, that Reagan didn't need the Birchers in his first race for Governor of California. (see Lou Cannon's Governor Reagan for more on this.) Those guys said Ike was a Commie, but Reagan was nice to them -- and they helped him win a close race for Governor.

Winning requires 50% +1. And if the 1 is a nut, what do you do?

#12 David Rogers on 2007-07-29 18:07 (Reply)

Didn't Reagan beat Brown by about 1 million votes in 1966?

#12.1 Tom Elia on 2007-07-29 18:25 (Reply)

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Ron Paul’s Supporters are the Republicans’ Cindy Sheehans

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Ron Paul’s Supporters are the Republicans’ Cindy Sheehans

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