Immigration Bill Unhinges the Right

Sunday, May 20. 2007

Immigration Bill Unhinges the Right

It sickens us when Islamic politicians call us terrorists, or when Arabs use the term "Holocaust" to describe Israel's defense of itself. People who disagree with George Bush's policies and have hysterically demonized him. That type of behavior is now happening on the right, prompted by the immigration compromise.

Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler:

Ho Chi McCain Drops F-Bomb in Senate

Ho Chi McCain. This is the guy who spent five years in a Vietnamese torture camp while fighting for his country, but hey, what does that matter? He disagrees with you on the immigration issue, so his service to the country is meaningless compared to your heroic defense of your anti-immgration beliefs.

Some of the comments to the post:

Apparently I am not the only one that thinks mcvain was turned by uncle ho’s boys in hanio (sic) way back then and he has been using standard communist doctrine to carry their water ever since?

I’m bluntly not even sure he should be thanked for his service as the brain wiring was the same before he went to hanoi, just waiting for the right (turning) signal.

This one's particularly sickening.

And this:

For I despise traitors more than a declared enemy.

Get that, folks? John McCain is a traitor. And we shouldn't honor his service.

Since we're on the subject of F-bombs, it's not something we generally do here at The New Editor, but if you mock John McCain's military service because you disagree with him on a political issue, you're a fucking moron.

Posted by Paul Geary in Politics at 13:15 | Comments (45) | Trackbacks (4)

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I think that if you're going to talk about "this type of behavior on the right" in such general terms, it would be helpful, and actually fair, if you could come with more examples than a single blogger, who calls himself a "Rottweiler."

#1 Rand Simberg (Homepage) on 2007-05-20 15:16 (Reply)

Perhaps I used too broad a brush with the headline "on the right."

But to watch Bill O'Reilly get excoriated by his viewers via e-mail because he merely states this is "better than nothing" hints that conservatives are pretty angry, and some of them are indeed becoming unhinged about it, almost forgetting that our fight against fascist Islamic expansionists is much more important than fighting about Mexican day laborers.

It reminds me of the behavior of the Kos people or the unhinged members of Democratic Underground.

#1.1 Paul Geary (Homepage) on 2007-05-20 18:13 (Reply)

Thank God someone said it.

#2 Michael J. Totten (Homepage) on 2007-05-20 15:29 (Reply)

Hmm...so when the political class tries to railroad a bill through that is obviously against the best interests of the citizens of this country its ok? McCain has something of a history in ramrodding bad bills through or haven't you heard of McCain Feingold?

About his military service...if he wouldn't so obviously lean heavily on that fact, in the same fashion as that Senator forget his name that served in Vietnam, he wouldn't leave himself so open to mockery.

In the end I respect his service but will still call him Grandstand McCain until he becomes irrelevent. Hopefully after this election he will go away.

#3 Pierre Legrqand (Homepage) on 2007-05-20 15:33 (Reply)

Mr. Geary,

I suspect you don't live in a border state. When your local taxes triple and your services are diluted to the point you feel you must pay for private alternatives to basic services like hospital room emergency care and schools for your children, let's see if you become "unhinged" enough to vent at online blogs.

#4 DRJ on 2007-05-20 15:37 (Reply)

>I suspect you don't live in a border state.

Spare me. You like states' rights? How about states' responsibilities.

#4.1 mishu on 2007-05-20 16:02 (Reply)

Mishu,

I live in Texas. In the same way that Texans helped displaced victims of Hurricane Katrina, Texans have borne a large share of the cost of illegal immigrants. The true costs of illegal immigration aren't known but if you are sincerely interested in researching what illegals cost Texas, here's a link that offers information from both sides to help you start your research: http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17629386&BRD=1994&PAG=461&dept_id=481732&rfi=6

#4.1.1 DRJ on 2007-05-20 21:08 (Reply)

From DRJ's first link:

Outgoing Comptroller Carole Keeton Strayhorn has issued an unasked-for report, titled "Undocumented Immigrants in Texas: A Financial Analysis of the Impact to the State Budget and Economy."

"... looking at gross state product, revenues generated, taxes paid and the cost of state services."

"the absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our gross state product of $17.7 billion. Undocumented immigrants produced $1.5 billion in state revenues, which exceeded the $1.16 billion in state services they received."

In other words, Ms. Strayhorn says, illegal - pardon me, "undocumented" immigrants - are a net benefit to the state economy.

#4.1.1.1 Dave on 2007-05-21 07:43 (Reply)

Thank you, Dave. As I noted in my comment, I linked an article that tried to present both sides of the issue. The article goes on to question Controller Strayhorn's report as political posturing for her bid to be Texas Governor and notes another, more neutral, report by the Lone Star Foundation.

Dave, your cherry-picking from the link says a lot about your idea of honest debate.

#4.1.1.1.1 DRJ on 2007-05-21 12:49 (Reply)

DRJ, the balance of my post was below. In any case my point is this.

How does Texas fund government? You live here as I do so you know very well that the State, cities and schools are funded by property and sales taxes.

Is it your position that illegals are not paying sales tax on the goods they buy and property taxes however possibly indirectly through rent? Because if they are then they are taxpayers on equal footing with the rest of us.

IOW, the 'illegals are bancrupting us' line is a red herring - at least as far as Texas is concerned. They're paying just as much in school taxes and state taxes as you or I.

#4.1.1.1.1.1 Dave on 2007-05-21 13:30 (Reply)

Here's a link to the Lone Star Foundation and specifically to a June 2006 article by James Bernsen that tries to fairly evaluate the cost of illegal immigration in Texas: http://www.lonestarfoundation.org/econ-state.asp

#4.1.2 DRJ on 2007-05-20 21:33 (Reply)

I live in Las Vegas, where now almost 40% of the population of the Vegas Valley is Hispanic.

#4.2 Paul Geary (Homepage) on 2007-05-20 17:58 (Reply)

Thank you for your response. Is it your contention that Hispanic is synonymous with illegal? If so, then I concede that living in an area where 40% of the population is illegal is equivalent to living in a border state. Here are just two of the border state realities we live with:

In my larger West Texas community, "only" 15-20% of the residents are estimated to be illegal but smaller communities have much higher percentages. Some communities have more illegal than legal residents, as well as more births to illegal residents than legal residents.

Many of these smaller communities' have had to close their county hospitals because they could not afford to underwrite the care of illegal immigrants who needed emergency and obstetrical health care. As a result, residents - legal and illegal - of those communities have to drive 50 miles or more to the nearest hospital for health care. Similarly, education is becoming two-tiered as people of even modest incomes opt-out of the public schools because they focus on bilingual education rather than education. I'm curious if you have seen these effects from illegal immigration in Las Vegas?

#4.2.1 DRJ on 2007-05-20 20:57 (Reply)

Oh for Christ sake, the point I was making is that I live in an area affected by illegal immigration - obviously a certain number of the many Hispanics who are here are illegal and most are not.

I also live in an area that has a labor shortage.

What you're essentially saying is that illegal aliens are making already bad policies more acute. Free mandatory health care and stupid policies in the public schools are problems. Keeping the illegals out (and deporting the ones that are here) will certainly alleviate some of those problems. But if even 20% of the population is illegal, then 80% is legal and still able to avail themselves of those taxpayer-paid services.

Frankly, I'd like fewer Americans to get so many government freebies.

By the way, how do you propose we get rid of the 12 million already here?

Besides, the point I was making was really about the level of discourse. Disagreement isn't treason.

#4.2.1.1 Paul Geary (Homepage) on 2007-05-21 02:23 (Reply)

I understand your point isn't immigration per se but the debate. My point was my last line - that what's happening here is people who object to this immigration bill are venting in online blogs. Is that really "unhinged"? If so, then let me point out that my comments have been mild but the passion in your response is apparent. By your standards, who's coming unhinged now?

#4.2.1.1.1 DRJ on 2007-05-21 12:56 (Reply)

How do we get rid of 12 million illegals?

Easy ... if bankers, employers, and landlords are punished for dealing with them, they will leave.

#4.2.1.1.2 Kristopher (Homepage) on 2007-05-22 09:28 (Reply)

Yeah, while it might be a valid observation, just 1 blogger is hardly proof. Especially since his whole schtick is basically that he's "unhinged" or really really angry and vicious.

#5 JeremyR on 2007-05-20 15:43 (Reply)

Okay, an idiot with a bolog makes some idiotic comments. Goes with the territory. But come on - "The Right" is certainly a bit larger than one idiot and a few comments on said idiot's blog.

If you believe that NRO or American Spectator or other more responsible critics are unhinged, let's hear about it. This issue is worth more than just a single stupid blog comment followed by a blanket denunciation of "the right."

#6 PS on 2007-05-20 15:43 (Reply)

you are spot on...The amount of money that this bill proposes is astronomical. Think welfare,foodstamps, money payment, English lessions, lawyer fees, low cost to free housing, and it goes on. I see nothing but high taxes ahead and a desintergration of America as we know it. Social Security will be past tense. and this perpetual state will exist way into the future. The poor will be poorer.
This is America and we speak primarily English, but the congress will not pass a law making this the accepted language in America, but will encourage business to have two languages on everything and even speaking into the telephone. We're up to our nose in it. Please do not make a wave.......

#6.1 the tapper (Homepage) on 2007-05-20 16:07 (Reply)

#7 jk (Homepage) on 2007-05-20 15:44 (Reply)

Absolutely! These people are ready to kick Larry Kudlow, Paul Gigot, William Kristol, President Bush, John McCain and, well, me out of the GOP because we recognize the economic advantages of immigration and the exigencies of dealing with our border realistically.

The sooner the better apparently. Advantages to legalizing illegals...cannot wait to hear this pile of excuses for breaking the law.

How about someone explain what happens to this group of illegals once they become legal and join the rest of us who won't do the work that illegals do. Will we need another crop of illegals? So this ugly plan of yours will create another huge group of people needing handouts.

Yes please leave the GOP. The sooner the better...truly I would rather lose than be allied to folks who have absolutely no idea of the sacrifices made on the behalf of their absurd compassion.

#7.1 Pierre Legrqand (Homepage) on 2007-05-20 19:53 (Reply)

The interesting thing is to once again see references to McCain as being tortured or being a "war hero". Other POW's in the same special camp McCain was in dispute that McCain was ever tortured, but the North Vietnamese did brag that McCain was a songbird (McCain's father was an admiral, BTW, who apparently interceded to keep McCain from being cashiered for poor performance in his early days). McCain "talked" for the North Vietnamese. Other prisoners never talked. Why is he a "war hero" who is suddenly an expert on war, prisoners, etc.?

#8 Mike S on 2007-05-20 15:51 (Reply)

If you read a little more of the Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler, you'll find that he's actually going pretty easy on McCain. Rabid hysterical slavering is his schtick. Calling someone a traitor is Misha's way of saying "Good Morning."

#9 Richard R on 2007-05-20 15:52 (Reply)

Anybody who can listen to

#10 MlR on 2007-05-20 15:54 (Reply)

I wrote a long post above, but it got cut out because I put in a link.

In short, anybody who Listen to this:

http://marklevinfan.freepgs.com/Audio/RobertRector.wma

And not get extremely angered, must be too used to taking it in the rear from our politicians.

This should anger anybody who thinks the government works for us, rather than the other way around.

#11 MlR on 2007-05-20 15:57 (Reply)

I had not heard of your blog until it was linked to by instapundit, with the headline the right is unhinged. I would say you are intellectually unable via your one link to support your argument of the right is unhinged, I believe that congresspeople use the one link argument when they dismiss blogs. You played you lost go home.

#12 Jaded on 2007-05-20 16:19 (Reply)

" we recognize the economic advantages of immigration "

There are no economic advantages to immigration, as every economist who has looked at this has said, from Borjas to Tom Sowell.

#13 James on 2007-05-20 17:11 (Reply)

Nonsense, we havent had a need for ANY immigration in over 50 years. We did it twice, once to populate a sparcely populated country and once for a then agrarian economy. We have no need for it now. We ceased to be an agrarian country 50 years or more ago.

The only reason they propose it now is that they cant get labor AT THE COST THEY WANT TO PAY....if they raised their wages, which is what you do to get labor, then they might get help. Raise it to 20 or 30 dollars per hour...and wala..there it is, not that they cant get labor at all.

We allow 2 million new immigrants LEGALLY each year.

#14 bills on 2007-05-20 19:35 (Reply)

McCain is a vile, cranky old bastard who has personally assaulted the Bill of Rights with the anti-free-speech McCain-Feingold bill.

So if some web provocateur makes off-color jokes about McCain's military service, I'm not shedding a tear. McCain has done severe damage to freedom and the principles of the Founding Fathers in this country. And despite McCain's own anti-free-speech views, it is, after all, just speech.

#15 W.C. Varones (Homepage) on 2007-05-20 19:37 (Reply)

Thank you for this. I am so sick of this. I support border security and I would like to see a compromise both parties can live with..otherwise nothing will get done. For this I have been called names and in general treated like crap. I know these folks are frustrated, but this is ridiculous, they are acting stupid.

#16 Terrye on 2007-05-20 20:45 (Reply)

I have to agree with Paul here. This mass hysteria is not helping conservatives. It just makes us look petty and hateful, which is something most of the American people are not.

#17 John Norris Brown (Homepage) on 2007-05-20 21:21 (Reply)

This is nothing at all like mass hysteria...this is more like we are mad as hell and aren't going to take it anymore. No more sweet talk, no more excuses, no more "compassion" with other peoples money, no more turning the other cheek on law breakers, no more smiling when someone tries to claim that they are helping illegals when in truth they are helping big businesses like Tyson Foods and Mohawk. Screw Bush and his absurd desire to import all of Mexico into the United States. Screw his and those elites belief that well it won't hurt too bad...like hell his salary is guaranteed.

The Republican party can kiss my ass if this bill goes through. Let the RINO's see how successful Rockefeller was before Reagan galvanized the conservatives.

This far no more.

#18 Pierre Legrqand (Homepage) on 2007-05-20 22:47 (Reply)

I'm not anti-immigration, you insufferable clown, and I'm quite underwhelmed by your side's constant use of that lie in lieu of an actual argument. I'm anti-*illegal* immigration, but I can certainly understand why you don't use that for a talking point.

"Look at those meanies, they're against illegal immigration!"

Nope, not likely to make an impression among specimens with an IQ above slime mold.

Finally, I'm an immigrant myself, you twit. Care to tell me again how "anti-immigration" I am?

Oh, and I don't care if McCain had single-handedly taken Mt Suribachi armed with nothing but a soggy toothpick, that still wouldn't give him a pass on his subsequent treason to the United States and our Constitution.

#19 Misha I (Homepage) on 2007-05-20 23:00 (Reply)

Some of the nicest people I know are legal immigrants. And some of the worst I've ever heard of are illegal migrants. They've already shown a willingness to break the law just by entering the country in the first place and -- what a huge shock -- many continue to do so again and again after they get here. You do the math, assuming your brain hasn't ossified to the point you are no longer capable of it.

#20 RobertHuntingdon on 2007-05-20 23:12 (Reply)

Just read comments by Georgia Repubs, after their congressmen told them that they "just don't understand" the immigration issue & gave them a lot of dumb excuses for this atrocity.. Wow, Those Georgia dudes are PISSED. Cheered me up, just reading HOW angry they are. I am mostly a liberal Independent, pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, but even I am sick to death of this immigration mess. It is unfair to our blue collar class, unfair to taxpayers, unfair to schools & healthcare, unfair to prisons & jails, all so some people can unfairly compete with cheap labor, as in bidding on construction jobs.. illegals have taken over construction trades in my state (WA) how about yours? There is no reason we can't close our borders and adjust LEGAL immigration to fit the needs of our country. All the excuses are BS. I am writing to everybody (politicos) calling, raising hell.
If we allow this bill to go through even 80% of as bad as it is, we are betraying our country. I do not say that lightly. Do your homework, this is big $$$.

#21 s sommer on 2007-05-21 00:23 (Reply)

Nice Doggie...hehe.

Go get'em Misha.

#22 Pierre Legrqand (Homepage) on 2007-05-21 00:57 (Reply)

Following standard internet indignation procedure I see. In case you aren't up to speed, here is SIIP, step by step:

Step one: Look up some stupid site (in this case the always reliably atrocious Rottweiler). Then move to the good old comment cherry pick (it never fails - people on the internets make stupid comments!). Then finally extrapolate to a wide smear of the target group.

Yawn.

"Almost forgetting that our fight against fascist Islamic expansionists is much more important than fighting about Mexican day laborers."

Why? The only major reason the US has to worry about Islamists are the liberal immigration policies that allow them easy access to the United States.

The only major reason Europe has to worry is because of liberal immigration policy. (When Europe imported huge numbers of arabs and turks, they were seen as docile day labor. Heh.)

#23 stilichio on 2007-05-21 04:24 (Reply)

Had to use 2 posts sorry.

Not too surprising to me, because anyone that lives in Texas knows the state get's its revenue from property taxes and sales taxes. And cities as well, as school districts get their money from property taxes and cities get their money from sales taxes.

And anyone that thinks about it even briefly will realize that if illegals are living here they are paying rent and buying their jeans and shoes here just like you and me. And anyone that thinks that through can see that means - at least in Texas - they are taxpayers on equal footing as far as paying for services as you and I are.

So the only way one can get to the conclusion that illegals are costing more than they're paying is to create a construct of the mind wherein Mexican folks are more likely to be criminal and commit more crimes or their kids are stupid and cost more to educate.

In other words, if you are even moderately intelligent and informed - and have thought about this issue in any depth at all - you have to be...well I'm not sure how anyone that has done that can conclude illegals in Texas are costing the state any more money than any other person here.

#24 Dave on 2007-05-21 07:45 (Reply)

Dave: According to the National Research Council, we are looking at a net 140 000 USD (2006 figure) cost per immigrant without a high-school diploma. (That means 70 percent of Mexicans in the US)

This assumes complete assimilation after three generations, something that is simply not happening, so the figure is most likely much higher. We are talking trillions here, even before taking into account the political effects (more taxation, quotas, affirmative action, etc.)

Here is a collection of census statistics that should give you an idea of how the Mexican community in the US looks today. It's long, but worth a read:

The sources:

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/native.pdf
http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-Mexico.pdf
http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/foreignborn.pdf

Labor force participation:

Natives 60.2%
Other Foreign born 57.1%
Mexican 54.3%

Share of working-age population with a disability:

American-born 19%
Mexican-born 27%

Poverty rate - this one is probably the best indicator of welfare dependency, etc:

Natives 8.3%
Other Foreign born 11.4%
Mexican 24.4%

Per capita Income - are Mexicans going to want massive redistribution? You betcha!

Natives 22.000 $
Other Foreign born 25.000$
Mexican 13.000 $

Share speaking English at home: (Pretty good assimilation metric)

Natives 91% (remember that 8% of natives are already hispanics)
Other Forign born 22%
Mexican 5.6% (Yowza!)

We always hear how important education is for people's future.
(The importance is exaggerated, so let's leave that out of the discussion for now)

Share of population with no high school diploma:

Natives 17%
Other Forign born 25%
Mexican 70%(!)

Higher education:

Natives 25%
Other Forign born 32%
Mexican 4%(!!)

Second generation (born in the US) school enrollment for Mexicans and other immigrants:

16-20 years:
Asia 76%
Europe/Canada/Australia 67%
Mexico 57%

21-25 years:

Asia 37%
Europe/Canada/Australia 28%
Mexico 15%

Now, all of this bad stuff will go away with a couple of generations of that good ol' american melting pot, no? Not really. Even when looking at cohorts and attempting to give a positive spin, Mexicans are just slightly ahead of African-Americans (the US permanent underclass) after three generations in income. (A mere 100 years or so.)

#24.1 Stilichio on 2007-05-21 10:07 (Reply)

I agree that the comments about McCain are wrong but the Immigration Reform bill is equally wrong for America. The very fact that Ted Kennedy is a sponsor is a guarantee of that. It will be equally as destructive to America as the previous Immigration Reform bill and Sen Kennedy's pet SS Reform Act. Anyone who supports this is out of their mind. Like all liberal legislation it simply rewards destructive behavior and will lead to more, not less illegal immigration. And do you really think the US is going to collect 1 penny of the supposed $5k in fees and fines from people who are sneaking in to the country in the 1st place? It's insanity.

#25 bandit on 2007-05-21 07:55 (Reply)

The 'right' is so unhinged because they are now figuring out that they will not be able to put a christian reconstructionist (google dominion theology) in the white house in 2008. Bush was elected because the 'right' thought they could control him. Yeah 'right', pun intended.

#26 Morgan on 2007-05-21 09:30 (Reply)

"The 'right' is so unhinged because they are now figuring out that they will not be able to put a christian reconstructionist (google dominion theology) in the white house in 2008"

Are you serious? "Christian reconstructionism"? The most marginal strain in conservatism today? Let's have a straw poll here people - who among those opposing the deal identify them as "christian reconstructionists"?

I'm first off the blocks: I'm a lifelong practicing atheist, although one who is not hostile to christians.

#26.1 Stilichio on 2007-05-21 09:44 (Reply)

#4 DRJ,

So, socialism is not all it is cracked up to be.

Republicans used to know that.

Now they act surprised.

Unhinged isn't the half of it.

BTW M. Totten,

Glad to see we are still on the same page!

#27 M. Simon (Homepage) on 2007-05-21 09:40 (Reply)

#14 bills,

I'm with you.

Employers should not be allowed to hire people at mutually agreeable prices.

Eh, comrade?

#28 M. Simon (Homepage) on 2007-05-21 09:45 (Reply)

#18 Pierre Legrqand,

Socialism costs too much?

Funny you should notice.

I blame the Mexicans. You too? We can form a club.

#29 M. Simon (Homepage) on 2007-05-21 09:48 (Reply)

Well John (one of the Keating Five) McCain is the MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE and a person worthy of being member of the party of the SEDITIOUS & SLEAZY (a.k.a. Demoncrap party)...

No wonder McCains sucking up to the wetbacks...

#30 juandos on 2007-05-21 14:49 (Reply)

Nice rack of stat's there. All moot.
Got anything on the impact of illegals on all them apparently legal folks included on it?

Or,, are we simply denying that the condition "illegal alien" simply does not exist?. Like it's done here?
Regaridless of their criminal status, we'll just call them immigrants,,and not address THAT messy case of poor planning, greed or forgery anywhere here'bouts.
That would be just soo insensitive.

And Simon fancies an intellectual parry when he snarks: "Employers should not be allowed to hire people at mutually agreeable prices."

'Missed the glaring point.
Employers should not be able to hire illegal aliens.
Beyond that, everything goes.

Y'know, with all the pmopous liberal fanfare about the rights of folks to earn more than the job is worth by foisting a higher minimum wage on the legitimate employers, the illegals suffer the worst because the minimum wage and overtime requirements don't apply to illegal workers.
As long as they fear naturalization, they're doomed to virtual slavery.

I'll have no slave or slaver as a countryman.

Well,

#31 Cheapshot911 on 2007-05-21 15:15 (Reply)

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